When

Monday 4th August, 2014: 3:30am - 5:00am

Where

River Room

Speakers

Facilitated by:

Panelists include:

Session Summary

This conversation, moderated by Graeme Innes, former Disability Discrimination Commissioner, challenges thinking on ways to influence change. Panellists are asked about the way they advocate for change and how they use their positions of authority to safeguard the rights of people with a disability. How does this help advocates in their work? And what do they see as the hot topics?

 

Audio podcast

 

Transcript

ROBYN GAILE:
This is the captains of change session where we’ll hear from Graeme Innesl chair, a q&a question and answer session with various captains of the sector. There are plenty of us in the room today. I think this is going to be a fabulous session. After the session has concluded, i will come back to the microphone to give some afternoon announcements. I will hand over to Graeme Innes to chair this next session.

GRAEME INNES:
Thanks very much Robyn and good afternoon. Hello and Welcome to Captains of Change. I’m Graeme Innes the former Disability Discrimination Commissioner. Tony Jones wasn’t available so you’ve had to put up with me again. That’s coming off the bench twice in one day that’s got to be a good effort. This is a Q&A like session just as if Tony Jones were here.

The session will be podcast and available as a package later. The caption transcripts will also be available through the conference organising committee. It’s captioned on the screen on the left of the stage, to my right your left.

The aim of the session is to discuss how the role of commissioner or similar role, not all of these guys here are commissioners, but how the role of a commissioner or similar can best be utilised by advocates to safe guard the rights of people with disability. I want the session to be fast and furious, I expect you all to participate and ask questions.  We have a range of commissioner like people; we’re calling them Captains because we couldn’t think of a better term to answer your questions. Now I’m not a commissioner like person I can be mean to these guys. We will see how we proceed. Let me introduce them.
Firstly my left your right Laurie Harkin the Disability Services Commissioner, please welcome Laurie.

(applause)

Next to Laurie, Colleen Pearce the public advocate.

(applause)

Bernie Geary the Principal Commissioner for Children and Young People.

(applause)

I’m sitting next to Bernie and next to me on my right, Kate Jenkins the Victorian Equal Opportunity and Human Rights Commissioner.

(applause)

Doctor Grant Davies the Acting Health Services Commissioner.

(applause)

We have an apology from Frank Lambrick who was going to join us but is not well today unfortunately.

Let me tell you about the format, how the session is going to work. First, we’re going to hear from the Captains. They’ve got exactly 5 minutes and I will be timing that. Not sure how I’ll stop them after 5 that will be an interesting challenge. I will ask them all five questions and they can divide their 5 minutes, as they like. Once we’ve had those five questions and I’ve asked each of those Captains, it will be over to you to ask those questions.

Let’s get straight into it, I want to maximise for you the chance to offer these guys questions. We don’t often have the chance of getting this many people such as this into a room in one place where we can ask questions. Let’s take full advantage of it. Let’s begin with the five questions and I’m going to start with Laurie Harkin.  Question 1, how would you describe your role?

LAURIE HARKIN:
It’s a privilege I’ve been doing this most of my 8 years. It’s a privilege to do the work I do; it’s an opportunity to influence the sector and an opportunity to influence Government. That’s how I see it. It’s also a not insignificant challenge to encourage people to speak up. A lot of folks with disability that’s not been their experience. They have not necessarily been in environments that have necessarily been that supportive of their life circumstances.

I sat through the earlier presentation from the folks who spoke about their experience with education. Again, I have a view that that’s something that probably needs some independent oversight as well in respect to the complaints processes in that organisation but that organisation knows that. It’s an opportunity to say and do a lot of things and advocate for at least the axe and more because I take an aspirational view to the rights of people with disability.

GRAEME INNES:
Thanks Laurie, what are your key goals in the disability space for this year?

LAURIE HARKIN:
For this year and probably the next couple of years Graeme, the thing that most consumes us is taking the message nationally around safe guarding arrangements into the NDIS environment. If thoughtful consideration is not given to what those sorts of rights and protections and the enshrining issue like of those arrangements in the future will serve as provision and not appropriately thought through well in advance of getting into the NDIS. That will be a big problem for people with a disability.

GRAEME INNES:
I’m sure we will talk about that more this afternoon. Laurie, which of your mistakes and I’m sure you haven’t made very many but which of your mistakes provided you with the best learning and what did you learn from those mistakes?

LAURIE HARKIN:
It could offcourse be my decision to come here today (laughter) and I am yet to discern the full learnings available to me until this had ended. More generally, I think I probably learnt most from imagining that more people politically share my view around social inclusion of people with a disability. That which I’ve learnt I sought now to translate into action.

The learning in particular, I appeared not so long again before the current Victorian Parliaments Family and Community Development Committee and talked to them about social inclusion, which is what they’re talking about. I have more and more understood that until all of us recognise our part as members of the village and share as members of the village the responsibility for care of the vulnerable of our fellow citizens, until we move to a position where we see all people as fellow citizens some people have different abilities.

We’re some way away from that yet and that’s the learning for me. I made an assumption that more people saw the world that way and the more I’ve learnt the more I’ve become disturbed that that’s less how society views it.

GRAEME INNES:
I think we’ve all made that mistake at one time or another. Thanks Laurie. Now in the 1 minute 15 seconds you have left how can advocates best use your position to achieve change in the disability space.

LAURIE HARKIN:
There is a particular issue that concerns me and that is the right to be free from abuse in care and I would’ve hoped that the advocacy sector and I’ve spoken to the similar gatherings, are you practicing the movement of that Bil.

One of the things my office has been doing in the last couple of years or so has been reviewing what’s described as Category 1 Incident Reports. Incident reports around an event that’s occurred around alleged bad behaviour, assault, abuse of some kind by a staff member to a person receiving services.

The insight we have, which is a dark window through which to look, but the insight we have and the learnings we need to take forward is a powerful one. For me if we don’t take as a State Government, as a society those lessons learnt into the future we will continue to have people subject to bad treatment, despicable behaviour, unlawful behaviour and people with disabilities their rights being ridden right over the top of and it’s simply not on.

GRAEME INNES:
Last question, which book is currently on the top of your pile on the bedside table?

LAURIE HARKIN:
I don’t have piles on my bedroom table, I’m more discreet. I recently reread James Michener, The Source. It’s not about tomatoes, it’s a different meaning.

GRAEME INNES:
Thanks Laurie, that’s a great introduction and we will come to asking more questions later this afternoon. Let’s go to our next person on the panel Colleen Pearce the Public Advocate. Let me ask you firstly how would you describe your role?

COLLEEN PEARCE:
Well my role is to promote protect and uphold the rights of interested people with a disability. My office does that in a number of ways. Primarily I’m appointed by VCAT as guardian of last resort for people with a decision-making disability. But also , the office undertakes a range of individual and systemic advocacy where we are trying to ensure that people with disability in so far as is possible can live full and happy lives.

But we also have what I describe as an army of volunteers. We have over nine hundred volunteers working for the Office of the Public Advocate. We sit on police interviews wherever a person has an apparent cognitive impairment. Last year that was over two and a half thousand police interviews, we sat on. We also visit people in disability services, residences, in supported residential services and also in acute mental health settings. They’re closed environments that many people would never visit. I guess they’re probably the key ways in which we work.

GRAEME INNES:
What are your key goals for this year Colleen in the disability space?

COLLEEN PEARCE:
Like Laurie, a really critical goal is the issue of safeguarding under NDIS. I have some really grave concerns about what the Commonwealth Government will adopt in terms of safeguarding. We’re particularly concerned that there will be circumstances where people in the community will not have access to the protections as afforded by Laurie’s office or my office and will have to rely on Consumer Affairs Laws in order to gain protections.

That is a very complex route to go down. I’m very concerned about that. I’m very concerned about issues of abuse of people with a disability. In fact, I would say the two biggest human rights issue facing people with a disability are the use of restrictive interventions and secondly abuse of people with a disability.

Just quickly two other key goals the office is currently developing a Koori inclusion and action plan. We know that our Indigenous citizens have significant numbers of people with disabilities but are not accessing the current disability service system. That’s an issue for my office. Finally we have a supported decision making pilot in Barwon and we’re very keen to look at how we can support people to make their own decisions rather than going down the route of guardianship.

GRAEME INNES:
It’s interesting that the first two of you to answer that question have talked about the NDIS. I think politicians have clearly got the message that all of us in the disability sector have campaigned very hard for the NDIS and we’re all watching that it doesn’t get broken. That’s great. Colleen, which of your mistakes provided you with the best learning and what did you learn from that mistake?

COLLEEN PEARCE:
I don’t know if I would call it a mistake but I certainly under estimated when I came into this role how difficult it would be to raise the issues of abuse against people with a disability. The first time I raised that there was absolute disbelief and why was I raising this because the Minister at that particular time had said her Department hadn’t told her so it simply wasn’t happening.

More than that, it’s the issue of the gendered nature of abuse of people with a disability. We know women are more likely to be victims of assault, sexual assault and that is an incredibly important matter for us to understand. The forces that are out there in trying to change the culture both in disability service providers but also in the wider community where it’s acceptable to take away the rights and dignity of an individual by subjecting them to cruel, emotional and physical abuse it’s just unacceptable.

GRAEME INNES:
You’re close to your time, how can advocates best use your position to achieve change in the disability space?

COLLEEN PEARCE:
There is two ways. On an individual level we have a telephone advice service and ringing our telephone advice service that triggers a visitor, a community visitor where that’s appropriate or in some cases advocacy by our telephone advice line or an advocate guardian. More importantly just giving individuals and their families the support, they might need.

Secondly, it’s getting in touch with us if you think there is a systemic advocacy issue that my office can take up.

GRAEME INNES:
Which book is currently on the top of the pile on your bedside table?

I’m currently reading Burial Rights and that’s a very cheerless book about the last woman who was executed in Iceland.

GRAEME INNES:
Thanks very much Colleen. Let’s come to Bernie Geary. Bernie how would you describe your role?

BERNIE GEARY:
My role is as I use it an extension of my being a big fat old youth worker actually. I’ve been a youth worker for 45 years and I see in the children and young person’s commissioners’ role to continue that but to be able to impact sometimes individually and sometimes systemically.

Fortunately, under new legislation about a year ago the commission operates with much more independence. I no longer have to tell a Minister to tell me to do something before I do it. I now have most of the capacity. We’re impacting particularly in the area of vulnerable children in every way that we can. I find myself actually connected very strongly in the out of home care area.

GRAEME INNES:
What are your key goals for this year in the disability space Bernie?

BERNIE GEARY:
I think it’s a general space and that is inclusiveness and I heard Steph say just before how important inclusiveness is and it is the answer. I’m running a Deb Ball for kids in out of home care as I do every second year next week. Part of that is specifically involving some people with disabilities. One young man in particular whose wheelchair bound and the generosity of the other people, the other residential care kids is incredible. I just want to be inclusive and maintain that openness as much as I can and to learn and work with others in the disability space.

GRAEME INNES:
Which of your mistakes provided you with the best learning and what did you learn?

BERNIE GEARY:
My life is riddled with mistakes. But the mistake that I hear in my own mind most of all is one I made when I was a young teenager. I am one of five boys and a younger sister who has a disability, a profound intellectual and physical disability. I remember very strongly not wanting to bring my friends home. My sister is fairly bizarre and really in your face and really loud. I didn’t want to bring my mates home.

We had just moved from the country to the city. My mother who only died last year age 97, would walk my sister around the block every evening much to my shattering, I was horrified. But it became so obvious to me and my brothers very soon that she was saying to the world this is my daughter and this is her community. It taught me a wonderful lesson about the value of community, the generosity of community, the importance of community with vulnerable children and I see it all the time. I use every opportunity I can to involve the community and that certainly applies to disability.

GRAEME INNES:
Thanks Bernie that’s a really powerful story, thanks for sharing that with us. I reckon I will tell that story in the future, that’s a great story. How can advocates best use your position to achieve change in the disability space?

BERNIE GEARY:
Certainly, I think by encouraging me to identify windows of opportunity and I think that sometimes I miss those more mistakes such as protecting Victoria’s Vulnerable Children Enquiry. I don’t think I use that anywhere near enough because I see so many young people with disabilities in our systems, in our out of home care systems and in our youth justice systems. Almost every residential care facility I go to I find a person with a slight disability or a profound disability who shouldn’t be there. I want people to come to me and be loud and trumpeting so that I can be loud and trumpeting around the needs of these young people. Around their specific needs and insisting, they don’t get hidden in broader systems.

GRAEME INNES:
Careful what you wish for Bernie, this is a room of advocates. Which book is currently on top of the pile on your bedside table?

BERNIE GEARY:
I really wish I could say something deep and meaningful. I have a book called Coleman. It’s about an old football hero of mine, it’s just been written. It’s a wonderful book and it takes me for a walk in my childhood. It’s a fellow who was my hero in the 1950’s.

GRAEME INNES:
Thankyou and I’m prepared to share the book I’m reading which is the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy. Let’s come to Kate Jenkins the Victorian Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commissioner. How would you describe your role?

KATE JENKINS:
I might describe my role by using the vision of the commission. Our vision is that we have a community where every person values, understands and respects human rights and equal opportunity. What that means in practice is I’m a Victorian Commissioner and Graeme you have up until recently been a Federal counterpart.

In Victoria, I’m responsible for a whole lot of functions under the Equal Opportunity Act, the Charter of Human Rights and Responsibilities and the Racial and Religious Tolerance Act. Those Acts give us a whole lot of functions including taking complaints, running education programs, running projects on systemic discrimination issues, doing submissions on new laws. So a huge range of functions. Unlike you, I’m responsible for all the different grounds of discrimination but disability is one of the key ones that have our attention.

GRAEME INNES:
What are your key goals in disability this year?

KATE JENKINS:
I just started last year and we’ve redeveloped our strategic plan. In looking at that, we particularly decided that we would focus our attention on a few key areas. One of them was the rights of people with disability. In terms of the focus for this year, I guess the most recent immediate focus is to make sure our recent report called Beyond Doubt is implemented.

Beyond Doubt was a research project we undertook looking at the experiences of people with disability reporting crime. We know that people with disability, we’re often focused on them as perpetrators of crime but they’re a much greater chance than the general population of experiencing crime and witnessing crime. What we knew from our disability reference group was there was a view that the rights of those people, well they experience systemic and pervasive barriers to being able to report crime and ultimately to have those crimes prosecuted.

There are a couple of other things but that’s top of mind. We have a number of reports and I know many of you know our work. Looking at relinquishment, looking at kids with disabilities in schools. Making those things happen but also making sure we’re reaching out to people who could complain to us who perhaps haven’t used us before so we’re more accessible to everyone.

GRAEME INNES:
Which of your mistakes provided you with the best learning and what did you learn?
KATE JENKINS:
I agree with everyone there is lots of mistakes. One thing I have really learnt, I came from 20 years in the corporate sector and one thing I’ve really learnt in the last 10 months of this role, when I started on day one I was told nothing about us without us Kate. In the corporate sector, if you want to do something you just do it. You ask questions later and you pretty much figure out the politics of everything is complicated.

One of the things I’ve really learnt in this role is the power of listening and understanding what the real issues are. It’s across the board in the different groups but certainly, we have our disability reference group that I will come back to, an Aboriginal Community. If I was to decide, what was best you can be sure that would not be right and wouldn’t make the change that’s needed. From there finding how you can bring people along.

We’re a Commission of seventy people, if we want to change the whole of Victoria, it’s going to be more than just me. Can I just do one plug for our disability group because I know there are some members in the room and others who applied, we have this really fantastic group. It’s eighteen people, every two years we have applications for a new group and this is the group that really tells us what’s going on. It’s a hugely diverse group. A whole lot of attributes, a whole lot of experience. Some very articulate people and some people who haven’t got to use their voice before. I guess I’ll just mention that the last round we had seventy applications and every single one of them could’ve got on and some of you will be in this room. I know a number of people have called and said what can we do better next time and my unfortunate thing is to say apply again next time. It was an impossible task so in the end we chose a number of people with different experiences to help us.

I’m really trying to hatch up how I can make sure we’re still communicating with others who are interested in contributing.

GRAEME INNES:
You’re really tight for time so I’m going to hold the next question for the broader discussion in the panel. It’s something I want to talk about more, which is how advocates can best use the positions of the various people at this table to progress the disability agenda. I’ll come to that. I am interested which book is currently on the top of the pile on your bedside table?

KATE JENKINS:
My pile is always huge because I love reading and I seem to have no time. The one at the moment as with most of my books, I have read the first chapter of, it’s called the Forgotten Rebels of Eureka by Claire Wright. It’s a book about women who were involved with the Eureka Stockade. The reason I’m really interested in this I think the importance of stories is so important and the opening contention is the history of Eureka and a lot of our history is about the history of men. They’ve left out women and they’ve left out people with disabilities. This is saying I’m not going to undo anything about the myth but actually there were women there they’ve just been written out of history.

GRAME INNES:
And Aboriginal people have been written out of history too. I learnt a year or two ago Aboriginal women came into the Stockade in the middle of the night before the major battles and took the kids away so they would survive the fighting. White kids and Aboriginal kids. We don’t learn that in history either. That’s really interesting, thanks for that Kate. The last Captain at the table this morning and I think this indicates I was a Commissioner for far too long. The last Captain at the table is the only person with whom I haven’t served on at least one committee. I don’t know Grant as well as I do some of the other commissioners. Welcome Doctor Grant Davies. How would you describe your role?

GRANT DAVIES:
Some might say not dealing with me is a blessing rather than a disadvantage. My role is a generalist role. We receive complaints from consumers of health services about Health Services Victoria. We’re a good generalist service. We get around 8,000 enquiries a year, which translates into about 3,500 complaints.

We get through a bit of work. We don’t investigate by and large. We take an alternative dispute resolution approach to our work. We resolve that by getting the parties together to talk about what their issues are and getting the parties together at some of those solutions. Some of those solutions can be explanation, apology change in practice or sometimes compensation. I guess I see my role as making sure that my staff have the necessary skills and abilities to do that in a safe way.

GRAEME INNES:
Thanks Grant, what are your key goals for this year in the disability space?

GRANT DAVIES:
Some of you may be aware that my primary Act, the Health Services Conciliation and Review Act is under review. I’m trying to position the office in a way that prepares us for what might come out to that review.

GRAME INNES:
So survival is your primary goal.

GRANT DAVIES:
Yes pretty much. We’re changing our organisational structure. We’re shifting into mixed teams. We’re changing our processes to make them more flexible and responsive to people’s needs because we know that people receiving a health service are sometimes vulnerable and people with a disability are sometimes more vulnerable. We want to try and make sure we’re more responsive to people’s needs in that way.

GRAME INNES:
Thankyou, which of your mistakes provided you with the best learning and what did you learn?

GRANT DAVIES:
Bernie reminded me of a situation in my youth. His story reminded me of that. I had a sister who was down syndrome, she died last year. I have a twin sister who has an intellectual disability. I was travelling home on the train when I was at school. Some people who were on the train were giving a down syndrome boy a hard time. I keep finding this difficult to talk about to be honest. I said you need to leave this guy alone, he is not doing anything to you. He said if you like him so much why not go and sit next to him and to my shame, I wasn’t able to do that at my age. But it made me think about what are my values and it really encouraged me to subsequently put my money where my mouth is and follow up on making sure and I’m very sensitised to people with a disability. You can appreciate the headlines around Gammy for example, are resonating quite strongly for me at the moment.

GRAME INNES:
With all of us I think. It’s interesting it was the next Chief of Services who said the standard we walk past are the standards we accept. It’s so true in this area. It’s one of those powerful lines that I always remember because I’ve been in similar situations myself and haven’t necessarily stood up. I can appreciate you and thank you for telling us that story Grant. How can advocates best use your position to achieve change in the disability space?

GRANT DAVIES:
Well you need to help me help you basically. We could do better in this space. I’m the first to admit the Office of Services Commissioner could do better in the disability space. We actually need advocates to tap me on the shoulder and say hey I think you could do better here and here and here. I’ll do my best to do it.

GRAEME INNES:
Which is the current book on the top of your pile?

GRANT DAVIES:
My book is called Relic, it’s on my iPod.

GRAEME INNES:
21st Century man.

GRANT DAVIES:
It’s called Relic. It’s about an FBI Agent investigating a number of murders in the New York Museum, it’s by Lincoln Child and Douglas Preston.

GRAEME INNES:
Thanks Grant. Now we come to all of you and it’s over to you for your questions, you can ask an individual commissioner, Captain a question or just a general question and we’ll all bat it around a bit. I’m going to try and keep the questions short and the answers relatively short because I want to get to as many questions as we can. Who have you got for the first question?

QUESTION:
I’m Elizabeth McGarry from the Association for Children with Disability. Grant I’m interested in the independence of your commission. I would like you to talk to us about the value of it being an independent body as it investigates unsatisfactory experiences.

GRANT DAVIES:
It is independent, we don’t advocate on behalf of either party. Because we’re trying to help people generate solutions to the issues that are under grievance between them we can’t be seen as advocating on behalf of one party or another.

In the traditional sense, we don’t investigate (inaudible 35:45) and I investigate issues very much. We do infrequently. Our main game is mediation and conciliation. We work very hard with the parties in the room and work very hard with the parties separately to bring them together to resolve the issues between them.

GRAME INNES:
Kate that’s probably a similarly relevant question for you, would you like to comment about the Commission and how it works in that regard?

KATE JENKINS:
Yes so this is another one of those learnings for me is walking the line. We’re an independent agency as well. I have a board, we’re loosely within the Department of Justice but a lot of the work we do is to shine a light on the practices of Government Agencies, Government Departments, Department of Education, Department of Justice Police. That’s I would say one of the things we do in that role.

We take complaints but have other functions as well a bit more broadly. We work really hard to work from both sides of the fence to empower advocates and help individuals know their rights and act on them. Also to help work behind the scenes with policy makers to try and change practice.

We come at them both angles and we use our relationships to try and convince them nicely. Sometimes when I’m said, you’re not making enough of a fuss that’s because we’re trying to from another angle and we know there is some good people making a fuss somewhere else. We often work with all those levers. We know with some of the stake holders we work with we know we can get influence where they’re trying to get influence.

GRAME INNES:
Others of you here like to comment, okay next question.

QUESTION:
Thanks very much. You probably all know my question because I have been carrying it around for a number of years. I have a child with severe intellectual and physical disabilities. When you were talking about the standards we walk past are the standards we accept, I think back in 2005 I first put in complaints and put in complaints again and again.

In regard to support disability incident reporting systems I’m amazed that there aren’t numbers on these incident reporting systems where the carer or the person responsible and it’s their duty of care to report that that it isn’t protected with that number. Can we have initial numbers on incident reports please?

LAURIE HARKIN:
I’m not sure that I feel able to speak on behalf of the Department. I get the point that Mathew is making, he has made it to me before. I don’t have a strong disagreement with the point he is making but I’m not sure I can speak on the Departments behalf.

I have had the same conversation with Mathew. I can see no reason, it’s certainly a notion that is worth pursuing.

GRAEME INNES:
Let’s go to the next one.

QUESTION:
Hi I put my name down for the Disability Human Right Commission Council. What would I have to do to get on to it? I never got to the interviews.

GRAME INNES:
I think that one is for Kate.

KATE JENKINS:
Yes I’m very happy to talk to that. I know there will be a number of people in the group. Our disability reference group is about eighteen people, we tend to keep half of them from the previous year. This year I really feel like it marks a really good development. We got seventy applications for in essence eight spots. They were amazing applications. We covered huge ranges of backgrounds, huge range of experience, lived experience of disability, carers.

The answer is I’ve spoken to a number of people, this isn’t a selection process that was ranked by quality. In the end we just needed to choose a range of disabilities, a range of life experiences. Thank you for applying and I encourage you to continue.

GRAEME INNES:
Let’s come back to you for another question, let’s keep moving to the questions we’ve got so we can get through as many as we can.

QUESTION:
Hi it’s (inaudible 41:14). First of all I would like to congratulate the panel. You can obviously hear and feel their passion and commitment to what they’re doing. What I’m really concerned with in the disability sector, we’re talking about how everyone relates and changes and we make all these wonderful things happen which is great. I’m really concerned about employment. I think in the disability sector we’re still really low. I have no real evidence so I haven’t got statistics, employing people with disability to get meaningful employment within the sector itself. If I am correct we are still fairly low what can we do? I think it’s fantastic to have reference groups. I think it’s valuable to call on people with knowledge. I see people with disability not as consumers, I see them as consulting. I would really like them to actually have some meaningful employment.

GRAEME INNES:
Thanks Morris can I merge that with one of the questions I had on my list. What percentage of the staff in your office have disabilities and what directions/actions are you taking to increase that percentage? Who would like to start with that question?

LAURIE HARKIN:
I don’t disclose to people what disability I may or may not have Graeme. It’s a personal perspective of mine. But I have admitted if you like and acknowledged that I have a lived experience of disability personally in two different ways. I will speak to that just briefly.

I im writing a forward for the Eastern Polio Network in Melbourne a couple of years ago was encouraged to acknowledge that I am also a person with polio and contracted polio in the early 1950’s when there was a significant epidemic across Australia. The presence of polio now is less obvious. It might be described as a hidden disability for me but I am still aware of its presence.

I had the privilege of having a disabled son with a disability and he shared his life with my wife and I until he was 13. I had a sense from that experience of the need for advocacy. I was harangued once by a very notable Australian with disability who has a much bigger national profile than I for talking and what appeared to them to be in a condescending way. I make no apology ever for being the strongest advocate that my wife and I could possibly be for my son’s circumstances. And the sun won’t rise on the day when I don’t hold that view strongly, until I no longer breath. The circumstances of people with disability being adequately represented whether through family or systemic approaches leaves an enormous amount still to be desired.

You will know Graeme, your own words where you have described the numbers of people employed by the Commonwealth Public Service as being around 2% and the words you described it as was shameful. You would know that the DIS as an agency would quote that about 14% of the staff that work for the agency identify having disability and a larger percentage identify having a lived experience of a disability.

I don’t ask people who work in my office do they have a disability when they join me. I seek always to appoint people regardless of gender or any other circumstance on the basis of the merits of the job. That’s me being quite honest with you about my office of circumstance.

GRAEME INNES:
Colleen?

COLLEEN PEARCE:
Yes, I think you’ve raised a really important question. I think the dignity of work, the dignity it brings having one’s own income is very important. I have had this discussion with my niece who has an intellectual disability. She is currently at a Tafe school doing Certificate 4. She is currently on work experience at Target. She said she went to the manager of Target and said what do I have to do to get a job here. He told her he said you have to work hard and do all these things and my sister said they’ve got no intention of giving her a job after this and she is trying her best.

I think it is really critical. If I go to my own office, we have a disability action plan. We are committed to employing people with a disability. We haven’t been terribly successful at that for a number of reasons. Our biggest issue that we’ve discussed endlessly and not perhaps got as far as we might is that my office focuses on people with cognitive disabilities and how do we find in an office a role for a person with a cognitive disability particularly in the public service where a lot of those roles have changed.

You might have had a mailroom to do or a range of tasks. I think about my niece what role could she have in an organisation like mine. The biggest challenge is those with a cognitive disability and how do we find employment for them.

BERNIE GEARY:
I think there are several issues. The one I’d like to zero in on is the voice, the voice of the person with the disability and I know that applies in several ways in my role. The voice of the child is really important and sometimes it’s really hard to hear. We tend to charge on assuming we know all about what children want. That’s been really brought to my attention in the last eight months since we’ve had a Commissioner for Aboriginal Children, young people and I have become more and more aware of how we really kidded ourselves as to how we acknowledged the voice of Aboriginal children until he came.

KATE JENKINS:
I agree the issue of employment is connected with so many other elements of participation. We do work looking at public transport for example because if you get a job you need to be able to get there. The stats that someone with a disability has it’s twice as hard to get a job.

In terms of our work, we’re really focused on employment. We get complaints and disability in employment is the largest number of complaints. I’m really disappointed a lot of those are injuries experienced in work and we don’t get nearly enough complaints from people who are just unable to get work.

We also it’s hotly contested at our board as to report in on disability status of staff. I know my staff to know that we would be above the community average but our focus is on VPS. We think the Victorian Public Service should try and be an exemplar and that’s a place for us to have our eye. Of course, as well we also have plans around disability employment access, making sure our services are very accessible.

GRANT DAVIES:
Like Laurie, it’s not something that I certainly ask potential employees. We’re subject to the Department of Health’s employment policy and procedures. I have not seen any disclosed people with a disability in any of our recruitment processes of late. But certainly, we have cause to make reasonable adjustment for people who have had sort of long-term mobility issues in recent times. I see no reason why that couldn’t be a permanent fixture. Certainly, our office is wheelchair accessible and is accessible in a range of ways. We certainly have flexible working arrangements. I couldn’t tell you, none of my staff has disclosed any disabilities to me.

LAURIE HARKIN:
Graeme can I say some more about this?

I understand, the point that Colleen made in particular and other colleagues here about dignity. In the late 1800’s William Booth, the founder of the Salvation Army developed a stone ark and the keystone at the top of this ark simply said work for all. I dealt with a lot of folks in homelessness, service provision, by god times people just need a job in order they can lift themselves up from where they find themselves.

It’s absolutely the case for people with disability as well. I’m not convinced that Governments necessarily has committed and in economic terms invested as they might be in providing what’s euphemistically described as reasonable adjustment to afford opportunity to enough people with disability and I reflect having employed people with significant hearing impairment, folks with significant visual impairment and blindness and folks with cerebral palsy.

Each of the conditions those work colleagues brought to the environment required a not insignificant series of adjustments and investment in order to optimise their opportunity to thrive in that employment. I’m not convinced as part of my broad view about do we as a society see ourselves and people with a disability as all fellow citizens on a shared journey. We’re a long way from that and I think this is an indicator of that.

GRAEME INNES:
I think that’s absolutely true Laurie, that’s a view I share. We are a long way from that and I talked about that this morning. Let’s keep focused on the role of Commissioners or Captains here at this table. I want to maximise the chance for advocates to ask questions of you and draw from your expertise in that area.

We did ask for questions from Cyberspace from Twitter and emails and I have them in front of me here. One from Grant Roberts:

QUESTION:
Why is it we effectively have no power to enforce things when it comes to disability? For example, the disability Action Plan that Federal, State and Local Government commit to, or write every three to four years but rarely put into practice because they have no budget. Yet these plans are showcased in the Human Rights Commission site like a trophy gallery.

Surely, there has to be a legal framework around the disability action plans so they are not meaningless and that the Human Rights Commission can enforce the same rules as the ACCC when they fine corporations for not playing the game.

The Human Rights Commission as of four weeks ago, now is not represented on this panel of course. But it’s a similar issue that applies to the Victorian Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission and from the Human Rights Commission point of view. I’m sure the answer we would get from Susan Ryan who has taken on the role on a part time basis of Disability Discrimination Commissioner, is the Commission would be happy to look at that if the law were changed.

GRAEME INNES:
Let’s get some comments starting with you Kate and others about sure maybe the law can be changed but also are there ways to reinforce those processes in other ways?

KATE JENKINS:
The Victorian Act has a system of equal opportunity plans that can be filed with us. That’s been around since 2010. But in fact, we have no such plans that have been filed with us. The Federal DDA had much better success in creating a bit of interest to get those plans posted but I agree with that comment about the law.

The discrimination laws don’t do a very good job except where there is a complaint. They’re designed originally around people bringing complaints and that’s why this room is a really important room to make systemic change. There has been some really great complaints and I had Kevin Cox who is the Queensland Discrimination Commissioner down, he was talking about one of these early complaints about the Brisbane Convention Centre. About the dignity of coming in the front door and not building a building to have people go around the back door.

I agree that question is a good question. I think if I use my strategic rather than legal head, I think social media is making a difference. I have seen significant changes recently. If you can tell the story well enough in media and there is so many stories that’s not always logical and to try and create a reputation. I’m not officially saying this but a question then change can happen because of those pressures and the laws kind of help a little bit along the way.

GRAME INNES:
Anyone else like to comment on that question?

LAURIE HARKIN:
I think disability probably needs somebody to hit the table politically for them. It’s okay for us Commissioners to be here but I think if we’ve got a Commissioner for gambling and a Commissioner for horse RACING, maybe we should have a Minister specifically for Disability.

GRAEME INNES:
Let’s go back to the room for questions.

QUESTION:
My name is Philip Graves I’m a physician and I’ve been in the disability field for 40 years. I have seen enormous improvements in the field since that time. Things like de-institutionalisation, creation of public advocates, creation of all your positions for which I congratulate you. Enormous improvements but I think my main feeling is one of frustration at lack of outrage at some of the disadvantages.

You mentioned them Graeme this morning poverty, employment, criminal justice system issues and there are many more. If I was more closely related to the disability field as a person with a disability or a parent, my main emotion would be anger and frustration.

What do you guys think you can do to increase the sense of urgency and outrage at the manifest unfairness in the system?

GRAME INNES:
If I were asked that question, my one word would be Twitter. I really do think social media could play a big role there but who would like to comment, Colleen?

COLLEEN PEARCE:
I think trying to get traction with the media. I don’t Tweet, haven’t got that far yet but certainly using that sense of outrage with the media. It is really also standing up whenever we see injustice. I use the example before of violence against people with a disability. It is absolutely outrageous and we have to be able to use that outrage in a very productive way.

One way to do that is to speak out publically so others can share that outrage. They can’t share it if they don’t know about it. Too often disability issues are hidden, are invisible in our community. So it’s making those issues visible.

GRAME INNES:
And use the opportunity you’ve got as Commissioners and when bringing out reports to make sure that sense of concern, injustice and outrage is there. Would anyone else like to comment?

BERNIE GEARY:
In the status that I now have of independence I have a capacity to do own motion reports. The report that I’m concentrating on at the moment is the sexual assaults that take place in residential care services. It invariably people with disabilities are the victims. Certainly that’s something I will be putting forward very much in the report I’m doing and will be going to Parliament.

GRAME INNES:
Thanks for that question, we’ve got about 25 minutes left. Let’s try and get through as many questions in that time as we can.

QUESTION:
I want to really ask you this question because of the disability service providers say they got no money to do their job.  When is it going to end?

I’m in a house where I should not be. i’m getting abused because a lot of people in my house are intellectually disabled and they don’t understand.

What do you do if you have aphysical disability and away in the country so you put your name down for the city but you have to wait for years.  Service providers are good in the country but they just need more support because they haven’t got the funding or materials they need.

LAURIE HARKIN:
Well what you’re pointing up is the inadequacy of investment. One of the challenges is to garner enough interest across Government to meet something towards adequate levels of funding to enable the circumstances that you described not being the circumstances.

I don’t know whether I’m naively optimistic or just generally optimistic that the emergence of the NDIS will rebalance some of this very significant lack of investment that causes the circumstances that you are living through and describe to be the case.

I don’t know whether that will be how it is. I hope that will be how it is. In your question, one of the things that I’ve heard for the last number of years is the frustration that people feel with the Act under which I work. The Act when it was written didn’t invite the holder of my office to have a view about the appropriateness of resource allocation. It enabled me to unpack in a complaints context how adequately and often not very is the answer, decisions were made and more particularly how decisions were communicated around resource allocation. It enabled me to form a view and say something to Government and the Department about resource allocation on the basis that the evidence would suggest that peoples experience is not as they would want it to be and this is a direct consequence of the inadequacy of resource allocation.

I don’t have a capacity and the legislation didn’t afford me one to say I therefore determine the allocation is inadequate, it needs to be increased to this level kindly do so. That’s not what’s invited.

The other thing I would caution people about is that if you go back to the Productivity Commissions own work around the scheme that’s emerging now as the NDIS, one of the things that the productivity said was, in the development of a complaint response in a new NDIS world that anything that dealt with complaints needed to be mindful of and not put at risk the financial viability of the scheme. That’s a very significant thing to be said, it’s buried away in the 700 pages of the productivity report. I caution my fellow citizens to be alive to this consideration because it will only continue to be played out in the way you describe and I can only express my empathy for the circumstances you describe.

GRAEME INNES:
Thanks Laurie, let’s go to my next question.

QUESTION:
With the Government, if they got any money would the Government do something about it?

GRAEME INNES:
Can I have the question again please?

QUESTION:
The Government, if you broke got no food they would come to help buy you some food don’t they like in wintertime?

GRAEME INNES:
You mean, What section of Government do you talk to if you haven’t got enough food?

Okay would anyone want to respond to that?

LAURIE HARKIN:
I would perhaps like to know more about your circumstance.

QUESTIONER:
Yeah I will speak up.

LAURIE HARKIN:
Well I don’t mean now, I mean perhaps separately.

GRAEME INNES:
I think that’s right, maybe if you chat to us afterwards we can give you some suggestions. Have a talk to a couple of us at the end.

Alright we’ll go to the next question..

QUESTION:
My name is Clayton Angus Ashley, I have a problem with my parents and I want to know about what avenues about (inaudible) that I need to know because I have a disability and also I have down syndrome.

GRAEME INNES:
Was that Superannuation?

Okay I’m not sure we’re the right people to ask that question but I think someone like Kirsty Wilson might be a good person to talk to about that.

Okay while you’re sorting that out I might raise one I have from the list here to members of the panel who might like to have a go of this. Can you give an example of how an advocate has used the services  of your office, obviously you don’t have to identify them, have used the services of your office effectively to achieve change?

BERNIE GEARY:
I can give you an example on a very small scale. When I was organising my debutant ball a lady came to me with her son who as I said before is profoundly disabled, wheelchair. It became really difficult and in a conversation on the phone I said to her look maybe this is not going to work out.

Well it did because she was a strong advocate and she pulled me into line. As I said I went to the young people but that was a person who was a strong advocate on something that might seem very small. But I wouldn’t mind her on my side in any back alley I can tell you.

GRAEME INNES:
Anyone else like to comment on that?

COLLEEN PEARCE:
There has been numerous occasions where we have worked with advocates and often we do that in partnership. Where a situation is identified there may already be an advocate involved and they may find they’re either not getting traction on the issue or they want more support. It’s often with my office we will work in partnership and that’s our preferred way of working. There has been countless times where that’s successful.

GRANT DAVIES:
Certainly there have been a number of times where advocates have played a significant role in the complaints resolution space with us where they’ve really advocated very strongly for the consumer, the person with the disability. There have been better outcomes as a result in our resolution space.

KATE JENKINS:
We would echo that, using the laws to bring complaints and either resolve them or continue has made a big difference.

GRAEME INNES:
One of the things I learnt as a complainer not as a Commission when I lodged my complaint against Rail Corp, Sydney Trains as they are now.

One of the things I learnt you never go to a conciliation conference without an advocate or a support person. Even I shouldn’t. I didn’t because I did it once and that was probably the mistake that I made that I learnt the most from. You can’t separate yourself enough from the process when it’s your complaint that’s been dealt with. It’s always valuable to have an advocate or a support person in a conciliation conference. I think that’s important to remember.

QUESTION:
Hello my name is Penelope. Thankyou for your time. My question would be to Kate to start with. Can or will an extra rule be created to make the medical profession a lot more accountable for their continuous abuse, ignorance, misunderstanding of people that suffer from mental health and hidden chronic disabilities? As I have discovered the Health Commission Services don’t really assists and it’s a bit wishy washy with their process I must say.

GRAEME INNES:
Penelope let’s let Grant answer that question.

GRANT DAVIES:
My experience of the medical profession and I know this might not accord with some of yours, my experience is that most medical professionals want to help people. I think sometimes they work from a position where they forget what they’re to do. They forget what the goal is in terms of their medical care.

I’ve found most of the time if you raise concerns with the medical profession they will listen and respond to those concerns in a considered way. There are processes generally in public hospitals, you have consumer liaison roles in hospitals that assist people to bring concerns about their care. And now of course there is now a Mental Health Complaints Commissioner who is able to take complaints about public mental health facilities.

GRAEME INNES:
That’s a short time ago that role isn’t it?

GRANT DAVIES:
It started on the 1st of July.

KATE JENKINS:
Can I just add to that we at the start of the year released some guidelines to GPs as providers of service. The equal opportunity laws do apply to medical practitioners when they do provide their services. We have identified through a number of our stakeholders that the experiences with Doctors weren’t always good experiences despite the best intention of some of them.

We particularly worked with people in the disability area, mental health as well as LGBTI particularly trans gender people had some very bad experiences and also people who couldn’t speak English very well. There are a whole range of issues. Those guidelines were to say to provide a lawful service here are the adjustments you need to make for a whole range of those people. I’d point you in that direction and also that you can raise complaints. We certainly give those guidelines to both educate and also to empower people to know their rights. We have done some brochures targeted at that.

BERNIE GEARY:
Just quickly, just as advocates we thrive on your energy and your insistence too. Whether it’s the Health Services Commissioner or myself, give us a hard time.

GRAEME INNES:
I like people who give you permission in that respect Bernie, thankyou.

Let’s get through more questions.

QUESTION:
With the National Disability Scheme (NDIS) when is that going to come through?

GRAEME INNES:
It’s in place in a number of regions already. It’s in Barwon down here and in the Hunter in NSW and started in a couple of other places. It takes about 5 or 6 years to roll out completely. It will gradually cover more of Australia. Next question please?

QUESTION:
Fiona Dipping from Grampians Disability Advocacy. I’m a disability advocate working in the Ballarat Region. I have had to advocate for many clients who have complaints to organisations like yours.

The problem I’m finding is I’m not funded to deal with systemic advocacy, we’re too small an organisation. A lot of my time is basically banging my head against a brick wall. In relation to the NDIS we’re not in a region where the focus is on roll out. I’m concerned that the focus is on roll out in regions where there is an NDIS at the expense of people that aren’t in a roll out site.

My question is how do we safeguard the rights of people who are not in a roll out site at the moment? The situation is there is no money, I think it follows on from the other gentleman before. I’ve been told by many people within the Department there is just no money, it seems to be CRISIS driven.

GRAEME INNES:
Fiona I think you’ve asked the question the conference is all about. I’m not sure how we can answer that in a minute or two. Would anyone like to answer that  question, how do we safeguard the rights of people with disabilities who aren’t in NDIS areas?

COLLEEN PEARCE:
I would like to have a go. I think you’ve asked what I think is one of the absolute critical questions. What we do see any additional money that’s being put into disability is it going into the rollout site.

So try and get on the disability support register, try and get an ISP. There is nothing else available anywhere and we are seeing pockets of extreme disadvantage as a consequence.

Like you I am very concerned about what that means for people who aren’t in the rollout area. But particularly it’s the lack of individual support packages and there are no new individual support packages or perhaps very few, certainly not enough. The thought of having to wait till 2017 till there is a broader roll out is going to create enormous disadvantage and difficulties for people. I just concur with you, I don’t have a solution.

GRAEME INNES:
It’s clearly an answer that’s before the Commissioners up the front here.

LAURIE HARKIN:
Can I ask a question of the questioner? Can I just be clear were you also asking about the future prospects of funding for advocacy?

QUESTIONER:
No.

LAURIE HARKIN:
Alright let me give you a warning given that you didn’t ask. I will tell you the answer that should be concerning for you. The NDIS planned to fund individual advocacy. There is no plan within the NDIS future view of themselves to fund systemic advocacy.

GRAEME INNES:
I think that’s something we have to watch. I think there is a paper on advocacy within the NDIS. Has it come out or is it about to?

LAURIE HARKIN:
No it’s not out yet.

GRAEME INNES:
Watch out for that because I think the advocacy sector will need to input in to that process and make sure there is a broader view. Thanks Laurie. Let’s try and deal with a few more questions.

QUESTION:
Martin Butcher from Disability. My question is to Colleen.

We often get the issue where we are advocating for people with little or no capacity to make decisions. We try and advocate on the wishes of people with disability. Where do you see the role of the advocacy of the advocacy maker, in terms of not restricting people but ensuring that both the advocacy have fair decisions made for them or with them?

COLLEEN PEARCE:
Well thank you for that I think that’s another really important question. What we’ve seen is far too often when we have a person with a disability that people turn to guardianship. So that means while it’s a protective jurisdiction it means we are limiting the rights of an individual when they perhaps may have had the capacity to make decisions for themselves.

Clearly the UN Convention on the rights of people with a disability calls us to in the first instance support people to make decisions for themselves and that is absolutely critical. But how do we go about doing that? It’s something that we haven’t done before, shamefully.

We’ve as I said too often turned to guardianship. That’s why we’ve got the supported decision making pilot in the Barwon region where we’re looking at how we can support individuals to make decisions for themselves. I know that for some people with a disability they’ve never been asked some of the really basic questions around what they would like to do.

Surely with NDIS and if we’re talking about social inclusion it should be based on individual choice and control. But how do people exercise that if they have never been encouraged or allowed to make decisions for themselves? You’re right, we need to work a lot harder to encourage models of supported decision-making and guardianship should absolutely only ever be as a last resort for the shortest time possible.

GRAEME INNES:
Thanks Colleen, we’ve probably got time for two more questions.

BERNIE GEARY:
That lady there probably has to have the biggest biceps after this is all over. She has had her hand up for the last hour.

QUESTION:
This is not the lady with the biceps she is sitting on my left. I work in Local Government and part of my portfolio is employment. I sat in another session where disappointingly we heard that Government is prepared to fight Government to support tools of competency to keep people oppressed in crappy workplaces and they will spend hundreds and hundreds of dollars to do that.

How can we as aa collective of advocates with all our individual pursuits join in to support people in this fight against, well it’s just shameful oppression really, to try and keep people on 33 cents an hour or $1.50 a day?

GRAEME INNES:
I’m not sure if we can deal with that in the time we’ve got.

BERNIE GEARY
My response would be and I’m sure you do and I see it now and then is use the media, use local members and it’s a fairly lame answer and I’m sorry about that. It’s so important in terms of justice for people so keep punching.

GRAEME INNES:
We often complain about politicians, I don’t think we go and visit them nearly enough. I think we’ve got to start knocking on their doors and talking to them about these problems. I really encourage the advocacy sector to do that.

BERNIE GEARY:
And the peak bodies.

GRAEME INNES:
Sure but the politicians we let life be way too easy for our politicians.

COLLEEN PEARCE:
If I could share again the experience of trying to raise the issue of abuse for people with disability.

You would think we would’ve done something about that a long time ago. There is no short cut it’s a long hard slog. I think you’ve got to build coalitions and just never ever, ever give up. We have to fight this injustice whenever we see it. There is no short cuts, there is some solutions and that’s visiting politicians, raising it at every opportunity and try and form partnerships and just keep on fighting.

GRAEME INNES:
I think we have time for one more question.

The bicep lady…

QUESTION:
Hello my name is Tania, I’m from Independent Advocacy up in Townsville. I’ve just got a question about abuse reporting. Basically
we’ve got a situation up there where there is a boarding house that has had quite a few residents report several instances of abuse, neglect, exploitation, all the stuff we fight against. What we’ve done is we’ve contacted the community visitor to go and have a look. The community visitor has come back and said they couldn’t identify any sort of risk.

My question is with the community visitor being the people that oversee this and make sure that it runs properly, if they can’t identify a risk even though we know there is one where do we go?

GRAEME INNES:
Colleen that’s your question.

COLLEEN PEARCE:
Yeah. If I could just say the Community Visitor Program in Queensland is very different to the Community Visitor Program here in Victoria. I’m aware that there are those differences.

I wasn’t believed when I first started raising this issue, which is the experience that people with disability have faced for a very long time. When I was faced with that, when the Minister told me it just simply couldn’t be happening on her watch, what I had to do was collect the evidence. I was so angry and determined that what I did was I went out and collected the evidence in whatever way I could.

I think the individuals who are in the boarding house can they tell their story, can you document their story? Where there is allegations of abuse can you take it to the police? You have to try and collect the evidence and keep raising it, keep trying to engage the Community Visitors.

There is also a Public Advocate in Queensland. Again the Public Advocate in Queensland is a very different office to mine but I would be trying to Public Advocate as well. The issue in addressing these issues is partnerships, coalitions, partnerships and at the very front and centre has to be the people with the disability because it’s their stories that are the most powerful. That’s very difficult because how difficult it is to tell stories that are painful and may end up re-victimising the individual but you have to be able to tell the stories and collect the evidence and keep at it.

GRAEME INNES:
Tania I’m sorry we have to stop it there, we’re very happy to talk to you in the afternoon tea break. Thank you for your question. I think that’s really important advice and I want to just between now and the tea break I want to get ten seconds from each of the five of you and I’m going to ask one question.

In the few minutes we have left can we go along, what is the one piece of advice you would give an advocate to get the best result from your office? Let’s start with Grant.

GRANT DAVIES:
Just keep at it. I’m with Bernie just keep on a hammer.

KATE JENKINS:
There is lots of touch points with us so come to us however. Use our training, our phone line, our reference group, just tell us the stories and see if we can help you.

BERNIE GEARY:
We have good days and bad days so don’t accept bad days, don’t accept us not listening.

COLLEEN PEARCE:
Same as everybody else you have to be persistent and you have to make sure that your voice is loud enough that we hear.

LAURIE HARKIN:
You can see in the cartoon perhaps of the drawing where the frog is half way down the cranes scrotum in its beak, the words underneath simply say never give up. Never give up. The other thing from my point of view is I’ve been to every funded advocacy service in the state, I know the folks do the job on the smell of an oily rag. It’s difficult, we understand it’s difficult but never, ever give up.

GRAEME INNES:
Thank you, you’ve been given permission by five of your Commissioners or commissioner like people to keep coming back to them or being persistent. That’s a great thing for an advocacy conference to have. Please thank all the Captains that have been at the table today, thanks very much.

Now remember this session will be made available after the conference as a podcast look out for that. As advocates the one thing you should always remember is and this is a saying that keeps me going in many a tough situation, don’t wait for the light at the end of the tunnel, get down that tunnel and turn the bloody thing on yourself.

(laughter)

Thanks for putting up with me this afternoon. Robyn any announcements before afternoon tea?

ROBYN GAILE:
Yes we do thank you, well done Graham on sharing what was a fabulous panel.